J-Mac thinks that parasites are “designs gone wrong” via adaptation, and phoodoo thinks that such things are required so that we can have free will.
These two positions are incompatible. And yet all phoodoo and J-Mac wants to do is pick holes in evolutionary theory rather then resolve these blatant differences in their position. Only one of them can be right, after all. This thread is an opportunity for them to resolve said differences and then they can turn to their righteous work of destroying evolution with a united theistic front.
newton,
Are mosquito bites necessary or unnecessary suffering?
Is being tired necessary or unnecessary suffering?
I have no idea what that means.
So what’s the point of this supposed god of yours, Phoodoo? I mean, if there’s no such thing as unnecessary suffering, there’s no such thing as evil or sin either. Whatever happens – genocide, rape, cancer, tornadoes, auto accidents, and heart disease – all are necessary for the good of mankind. There’s nothing for some supposed god to do since everything’s clearly perfect according to you. No heaven, no hell…just the perfection of a world of suffering to build character and give some incentive to get out of bed…
Just curious, but how many hospitals and prisons are there in the heaven you believe in? Are there any?
Robin,
Are you going to answer what is necessary and what is unnecessary suffering?
Why should I bother? You don’t seem to think there is such a distinction at all. All suffering must be perfect. All part of the plan, right?
This god of yours, he’s big into waterboarding is he? Maybe that’s the first thing he does to folks who show up in heaven…
ETA: I just realized that Phoodoo’s perspective on suffering is no different than Gordon Gecko’s perspective on greed.
Here you go Phoodoo. You can just post this the next time this conversation comes up:
“The point is, ladies and gentleman, that suffering, for lack of a better word, is good. Suffering is right, suffering works. Suffering clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit. Suffering, in all of its forms; suffering for life, for money, for love, knowledge has marked the upward surge of mankind.”
Kind of makes you wonder: if there’s no such thing as unnecessary suffering why everyone isn’t embracing every form of suffering there is all the time and why, in all our apparent silliness, we would even consider trying to stop or hinder or treat any suffering at all.
Unnecessary Suffering: Suffering which technology or medicine will ameliorate.
Necessary Suffering: There is no necessary suffering.
Unavoidable Suffering: Suffering which is part of the human condition. Running out of ice cream. Not getting the blond. Having your satellite fail to deploy. Coming last in the egg and spoon race.
Maybe that’s what he does eternally. For our own good.
Your remind me of Mother Theresa phoodoo.
Her views on suffering seem remarkably similar to yours.
Her missionary’s practice of “caring for the sick by glorifying their suffering instead of relieving it”, is that something you agree with? Do you support that? Would you give painkillers to relieve a patient’s suffering?
phoodoo,
For a fair few thousand people on this world there is no suffering, as such. Third generation ultra-rich families, what suffering are they going through phoodoo? What pain, distress, or hardship are they experiencing? Does not getting the color of Ferrari you wanted for your 16th count as suffering?
Why, if there is necessary suffering, are they not suffering it? Is your god impressed by bling?
You keep asking people to list unnecessary and necessary suffering, why dont you do that? What’s on the list?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8o46HH-TfNY
Can you link to some suffering in that video? Just right click and “copy URL at current time”.
Funny how neither phoodoo nor J-Mac have mentioned again my “misrepresentation” of them, after having such a meltdown in the first instance. How very very strange. So I guess the OP stands as-is, right?
And, if we look at the dictionary definition of suffering none of those things I listed even count. So hey, it turns out that people not wanting to live in medieval times can have quite a nice life, with no suffering at all. How super. If the uber-rich can do it without phoodoo’s god teaching their dog to bite their faces off unbeknownst to them then so can I!
Tough love.
Here’s an example of how phoodoo’s God shows his love. What a lucky woman, to be granted the divine gift of facial tumors.
Okay, phoodoo, now explain to us how that woman’s facial disfigurement is the equivalent of a mosquito bite or a bad haircut, and that it would be ridiculous for her to complain about God’s treatment of her.
You claimed it was a problem” But the problem is, you can’t describe what is needed suffering and what is needless suffering! Its that simple Rumraket”
Phoodoo: “My position is not that they are necessary for free will, but rather ALL things, good or bad are part of a physical, mortal world. Asking to get rid of one, is asking to get rid of everything.”
That sounds like you have a opinion. That suffering being part of the physical world is necessary.
So what you seem to be saying to have an opinion on whether if some suffering is unnecessary. If you use Novocain at the dentist then you have an opinion on whether unnecessary suffering exists as well a way to distinguish it.
Yeah, just as it turns out WJM does not piss the bed despite being able to make his own reality I’m sure it’ll turn out that phoodoo turns up the gas at the dentist to the maximum level…
I wonder if Phoodoo feels that asking to get ride of cruel and unusual punishment and excessive force is tantamount to the US “giving up everything”…
But I just did. Oh boy, can you stop saying that I can’t do something that I literally did in the post you respond to?
Needless suffering is the kind of suffering that does not lead to greater goods. The exact words I used were: “I’m not saying there isn’t some place for hardships in life. Or that it should never happen that someone dies prematurely. I have some sympathy for the argument that some of the pain and misery we go through is what serves to make the good stuff be good in comparison. That these terms like suffering and happiness make the most sense when they’re defined relative to each other.
What I’m against is needless (degree of) suffering. Pain and suffering that doesn’t seem to lead to any comparatively positive effect.”
Falling and scraping my knee on the asphalt isn’t a needless type of suffering. A suffering I learn something from that is useful for the rest of my life. There are even some types of suffering that bring about great happiness later on. The suffering that comes with running a marathon for example. Pain and exaustion. But the exhilaration and pride, the knowledge that you completed something very difficult, that you met a goal you set for yourself and so on, are all things that make the suffering of running that marathon worth it. It’s not needless, it is useful and can make you even happier.
Watching your child die to malaria is a needlessly cruel kind of suffering. There is no greater good that comes from it. It is a net negative on the human condition to watch your child die to malaria. The people who go through it are scarred for life and never truly recover. They might eventually get a good life, but was that good life worth them having to go through that unimaginable pain of watching their offspring tortured to death by factors they are powerless against? No, it wasn’t. That’s what needless suffering is.
I don’t care about some particular percentage. I’m more concerned with concrete examples.
If God tortured only 1 out of a trillion people, God would still be someone who tortures someone. You shouldn’t torture anyone. Period. You’re right, I’m complaining. It’s not enough. Nobody should have to watch their child die to malaria. Nobody at all.
From the OP:
Why don’t you tell us why they are incompatible?
keiths,
Robin is complaining of God’s treatment of them. Rumraket is complaining of God’s treatment of them. Omagain is complaining of God’s treatment of them. You are complaining of God’s treatment to you.
Are you all disfigured like that?
Who should chose the ones?
Incapable of reading for comprehension. (It’s impressive how ingrained emotional filters prevent comprehension.)
They’re noting specifically that your infinitely loving, omnipotent god created such atrocities. As if it had no choice – no free will. And that you’re not bothered by that.
You mean God shouldn’t have created keiths, and Omagain and Rumraket and Robin, because its an atrocity? All of them complain that God hasn’t done enough for them.
Again, a failure to read for comprehension. Or is it a deliberate, calculated attempt to deflect? In any case, not relevant.
I call bullshit.
Ingrates. Atheists, it’s not that they are ungrateful, they just lack gratefulness. 🙂
Thank you, Blessed Lord, for torturing me. For I am but a worm in Thine eyes.
For Thine is the Kingdom, and the Power and the Glory, etc.
It’s a privilege to believe in You.
Amen.
As someone noted:
“The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much as one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect over the fire, abhors you, and is dreadfully provoked: his wrath towards you burns like fire; he looks upon you as worthy of nothing else, but to be cast into the fire; he is of purer eyes than to bear to have you in his sight; you are ten thousand times more abominable in his eyes, than the most hateful venomous serpent is in ours. You have offended him infinitely more than ever a stubborn rebel did his prince; and yet it is nothing but his hand that holds you from falling into the fire every moment. It is to be ascribed to nothing else, that you did not go to hell the last night; that you was suffered to awake again in this world, after you closed your eyes to sleep. And there is no other reason to be given, why you have not dropped into hell since you arose in the morning, but that God’s hand has held you up.”
This god is a reasonable guy. Just don’t get on his bad side:
“That God will execute the fierceness of his anger, implies, that he will inflict wrath without any pity. When God beholds the ineffable extremity of your case, and sees your torment to be so vastly disproportioned to your strength, and sees how your poor soul is crushed, and sinks down, as it were, into an infinite gloom; he will have no compassion upon you, he will not forbear the executions of his wrath, or in the least lighten his hand; there shall be no moderation or mercy, nor will God then at all stay his rough wind; he will have no regard to your welfare, nor be at all careful lest you should suffer too much in any other sense, than only that you shall not suffer beyond what strict justice requires. Nothing shall be withheld, because it is so hard for you to bear. Ezek. viii. 18. “Therefore will I also deal in fury: mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity; and though they cry in mine ears with a loud voice, yet I will not hear them.” Now God stands ready to pity you; this is a day of mercy; you may cry now with some encouragement of obtaining mercy. But when once the day of mercy is past, your most lamentable and dolorous cries and shrieks will be in vain; you will be wholly lost and thrown away of God, as to any regard to your welfare. God will have no other use to put you to, but to suffer misery; you shall be continued in being to no other end; for you will be a vessel of wrath fitted to destruction; and there will be no other use of this vessel, but to be filled full of wrath. God will be so far from pitying you when you cry to him, that it is said he will only “laugh and mock,” Prov. i. 25, 26, &c.”
But he does seem to lose his temper:
“I will tread them in mine anger, and will trample them in my fury, and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.” It is perhaps impossible to conceive of words that carry in them greater manifestations of these three things, vis. contempt, and hatred, and fierceness of indignation. If you cry to God to pity you, he will be so far from pitying you in your doleful case, or showing you the least regard or favour, that instead of that, he will only tread you under foot. And though he will know that you cannot bear the weight of omnipotence treading upon you, yet he will not regard that, but he will crush you under his feet without mercy; he will crush out your blood, and make it fly, and it shall be sprinkled on his garments, so as to stain all his raiment. He will not only hate you, but he will have you, in the utmost contempt: no place shall be thought fit for you, but under his feet to be trodden down as the mire of the streets.”
Would a course in anger management help? Would he want to cooperate?
Imagine a father who actually chose for his daughter to suffer the way that woman has. On
Imagine a father who actually chose for his daughter to suffer the way that woman has. Who in their right mind would praise him as a moral exemplar and a paragon of loving kindness?
Yet look what phoodoo and Mung do when the perpetrator is their God.
keiths,
You don’t think God should have allowed you to exist?
Keiths thinks her actual father is a monster for not killing her. I guess that goes for people born poor too. keiths feels that poor people should all be forced to have operations so they can not have children.
I bet keiths thinks evil existed before humans. He probably thinks evil existed before animals. Heck, I expect that even in a universe with no life he’d still find something to call evil. God should never have allowed that supernova. God should never have allowed that black hole.
Mung,
I guess evil existed before God then.
Phoodoo and Mung are like fawning Trump cabinet members, bowing and scraping to their leader and kissing his ass, no matter how badly he screws up or how abominably he behaves.
To believe in a loving God is truly a badge of shame, both intellectually and morally.
Why don’t you explain how they can possibly be compatible?
Would you give painkillers to a dying patient? Mother Teresa would not. Would you Mung?
You’ll have to answer for the theists I’m afraid, phoodoo apparently is terrified to explore the entailments of his worldview.
phoodoo,
Will you stop lying about what I’ve said? Will you stop “quoting” fake quotes of things I’ve not said? Does your god condone this behavior?
Quote me where I’ve complained about the god I don’t believe in or admit you are a troll.
Notice how phoodoo has been relegated to basically trolling and saying “haha, you’re ugly”.
This is YOUR best post ever.
I am still trying to figure out how, in your image of a just world, SOME children should die but not all. And not from malaria. From murder?
This “greater good” concept of yours is rather fuzzy.
I believe you.
So it makes two of us!
Feel free to let me know when you feel you have unlocked what you believe.
Breaking news, phoodoo. The world isn’t just
The good news is God is not to blame because he doesn’t exist. So it’s up to us to try and make it better
Amen.
dazz,
If God doesn’t exist, what does the concept of better mean? Better for who? Maybe it means better for bacteria.
Even if God exists, phoodoo, it depends on which version you believe in.
No it doesn’t. It has nothing to do with what I believe in.
The moral argument is a pile of crap and has been addressed here countless times. Try to keep up phoodoo
Because the answer to, “better for whom”, is predicated on the version of the deity you believe in. Different deity, different answer. Belief in God does not guarantee agreement.
phoodoo,
Does what you believe mean that you would offer painkillers to a dying person, or would you not offer them?
Likewise, when you go to the dentist, do you get painkillers or do you suffer the pain?